I notice there are not many people posting in these forums, I am assuming this is because you are all hard at work on your modules. I, have registered a bit early and do not intend to start until January, will probably do a couple of modules and see how I feel about progressing onto a certificate.
However, having looked around the internet I have not really found any decent forums where there seems to be some good discussion about theological issues and ideas. So, I thought here is as good as place as any to 'post up'. Whether I end up having a discussion with myself remains to be seen.
So, atonement. I am having an ongoing discussion with a friend of mine concerning atonement and exactly what does that mean to us today as people living today. What exactly happened which Jesus was nailed onto the cross, what spiritual elements were at work. When most people are asked what they think happened you get the answer that Christ paid for our sins. Now, I am sure this probably true since it seems to be the answer once receives regularly, but what does that mean? How exactly has Christ paid for my sin and indeed, why does my sin need paying for? Does not forgiveness come from God per se, so why would I need God to 'pay' for it since God (Jesus) is God, he can do all and everything. Surely he was not bound to the devil or whatever the opposing force is that God had to somehow make a deal so that we are 'saved'. Surely he had a way already, we are Gods creation, we are loved by him so why would we be in a state where Jesus would need to die on a cross.
Some have said that the 'paying' part of Christ’s death is that he went to hell for three days and thus was at the mercy of the devil. Again, is there any basis for this and I guess when we say he paid what exactly happened?
This may seem a little disjointed but I have just thrown out the thoughts as and when they came, and I guess i am being a little simplistic in my approach, however, this is one of those fundamentals to Christian faith. When I ask people exactly what they think it seems a little scratch on the surface brings about a struggle within people to fully understand what it is they think Jesus / God has actually done for them.
If anyone would like to join me in this discussion please do feel free to get involved.
Hi Brendan, If you can get some conversation started on here that would be wonderful. I have no-one online to talk to about this stuff (although if you and I talk for too long I suspect I may frustrate you beyond words since when I don't have the answer (which is most of the time!) I just defer to the sovereignty of God and hold that up as my answer!) Great question though. I don't think however though that my 'answer' is really an answer to what you're asking at all. I don't know anything about the concept of 'paying' because you're right, God is God and since He makes the rules, why does He say someone has to die? I'm sure there is a biblical theolgical answer out there somewhere but it will have to come from someone other than me. However, I personally believe the biggest reason Jesus died on the cross was to prove just how much God loves us. I mean, how could this huge, awesome being that placed the stars in their sockets and created the giraffe (as an aside, that animal is proof for me, if proof were needed, that God definitely has a sense of humour) really love us? I don't know you but I know me and I know that there are days when I don't even like me, so how can God love me? But when Jesus died on the cross, it's proof that that is just how much He loves me. I was looking at the bit in 1 Corinthians 11 a couple of weeks ago in preparation for communion. When I read verses 25 and 26, I felt to compelled to ask, why do we do it in rememberance of Jesus' death? We don't ever forget about that do we?! And I felt God speak into my heart that we do it as often as we do it so that we don't forget just how much He loves us. And of course that's not the end of the story because whilst His death proves His love, His resurrection proves we can trust Him. He told us that this would happen and is good to His word. So whilst this doesn't really address your discussion, I felt I should add some thoughts that might help the process along some. Eleanor
Hi there, thanks for your response.
Totally get the idea of God and his sovereignty, it is where I always find myself when I have exhausted the meagre deths of my knowledge. I have however decided it is time I scratch the surface and see what is below, hence i have done some research and have found a plethera of stuff out there. Just bought a book as well about atonement which was written as a result of Steve Chalke saying some controvesial things, thus a symposium was set up. Looking forward to reading it even if it is about to blow my skull to bits.
However, what I have found out is that there are a few theories on atonement and a more accurate theological term, Soteriology, i.e. the study of salvation and such. I have uploaded a document to my domain which I found whilst looking for info on this subject. The document is here if you fancy a read LINK
Basically it seems there are many theories which throw up in themselves a number of questions. I might throw up a synopsis once I have read the paper as that will help me get the thing into my head.
Brendan
Hi Brendan,
I think I'm going to have to gracefully bow out of this one. I had a quick look at the document on your website but I just know that if I start reading too much I'm going to get seriously sidetracked! I need to get through the Pastoral Theory and Practice module before December 4th (when I coming to college for a teaching day - can't wait, I'm very excited!!) plus a load of other non-Spurgeon's bits and bobs. Having asked for prayer to help me get everything done, I'm not sure that throwing another ball up is the best plan right now.
As an aside, what was this controversial thing that Steve Chalke said? Have you read his, 'The Lost Message of Jesus' because it is excellent.
Finally (and tell me to mind my own if you like) but why are you waiting until the New Year to start studying? That's one of the fab things about online learning, assumming you can get the funding, you can do it when and where you like. The printable pdf versions of the units have meant I've even been found studying while my youngest is playing in the bath!
Have a great day,
El
Hey
No problem whatsoever! I totally understand and I am sure when I get involved in this I will be far too bogged down to entertain any other subject areas.
In his book The Lost message of Jesus, Steve Chalke asserts that penal substitution is not a valid theory for atonement. I knew nothing of these terms 'penal substitution', imputation etc until I started looking a little deeper at the subject of atonement. Penal substitution is a theory based on Jesus paying a 'penaly' instead of us doing so. But he pays the penalty to appease the anger of his father, that beng God. It seems that Steve Chalke argued that a God who is love can not send his son to death just to appease his anger, for a God who is love can not be anger as well. Or at least his view goes something like that. It caused a right old rift in evangelical circles resulting in a symposium being held where a debate was held and a number of revered scholars on the issue submitted papers in support or against the view that Steve Chalke raised in his book.
I kind of got a bit interested.
Anyway, why am I waiting till January, well there are probably three main reasons. Firstly I am doing an english teaching course at the moment which finishes soon so want to get that out of the way before I start more study. Secondly, I am not entirely sure why I want to go down this path, its a personal decision so its nothing to do with career or anything like that so I would be paying for it myself (that is the third reason), so I guess i am waiting, waiting for walls to fly up or not. I am quite a spontanious sort of person so I head on into things pretty much head first., so thought the wisdom was to see,through prayer, if this is something that God may or may not want me to do.
I guess I am waiting, but also, failing any divine blockwork I shall head on full steam ahead once i have finished my current studies.
We shall see........