Hi Brendan
Great question!
First thing I would say is that really Atonement, means covering, and is about the Old Testament system of the blood of animals covering the people’s sin. Jesus didn't cover our sin, but rather dealt with them fully, therefore it’s more about making propitiation (a word I can’t even say) you see it used in Rom.3:25, Heb.2:17, 1 John 2:2, 1 John 4:10 at least in the NASB, obviously not in the NIV though. It really means to make peace completely. But the idea is sort of same.
Jesus died in our place, because the wages of sin is death, we deserve death, an eternal death, but Jesus death, His blood, when applied to our lives (same idea as in exodus, where they applied the blood of the lamb to the door post, and God “passed over” them and they didn’t suffer death) so it is with Jesus blood, the blood it’s self is only affective when we “apply” it to our lives.
Steve Chalke may not like the idea but this isn’t a children’s story that we adjust to satisfy the PG censors. It is what it is. Jesus wasn’t forced. He offered his life up willingly knowing it was the only way to cleanse us fully from our sins. It wasn’t just that we were in slavery to satan, but that God could not accept us covered in our sins. God is a holy God, it is His nature, just like you can’t mix oil with water, and you can’t unholy people with a holy God. Jesus blood cleanses us from all unrighteous.
At least that’s the way I see it.
Fellow students,
I read these posts yesterday and as I was driving into work this morning some things came to my mind and I wanted to share them with you. Our God is an awesome God. He is a patient God and at all times his plan is at work. In the Old Covenant God's chosen people had The Law. And as part of our human need, perhaps the offering of the lamb for antoning for sin was not for God so much as it was for us to come to peace. We could relate to offering this blood sacrifice to God. Yet we continued to sin, the whole story of the old testament is God's people going back and forth, being sucked into the world around them, and then by the grace of God getting back on track. God showing his hand that he was a jealous God. All through this time dropping hints of a Messiah. Jesus could have just stayed in heaven and let us wonder around aimlessly. In the New Testament Christ tells us that the Father gave us to his son. The Son came to show us how to live so that even on earth we could share in the kingdom of God. He took the poor, the sick, the humble, the simple and showed us through them that he cared for all of us no matter, he loved us. And as he loved us so does the Father for they are one. History had already laid the groundwork for his death, the prophets spoke of it, is it so much that the Father needed the Son's death or that we, his people, needed to see that God loved us so much, that he was prepared to die for us. He was the "lamb of God" and "he would take away the sins of the world". This would be the final sacrifice...nothing could top this one. And with his death he would rise and be seen by hundreds. WE needed this....WE now had proof of how much God loved us, we had a way to live driven not by the Law but by grace, we could now have real faith and because of that faith we had the Holy Spirit that brings gifts. If we believe and follow and open our hearts WOW God is with us, Christ is with us! Now we can love and worship the Lord of all the way it was meant to be from the beginning, but we (man) had sinned and as a parent perhaps we needed to be disciplined we needed to learn through baby steps to prepare us for the coming of the Son.
As I believe someone else put it.....that's my take on it!
Blessings,
Joe
Hi mate, I would definititily agree with you there, there had to be an eternal taking away of our penalty and that could only be from a man that is sinless, that death could not hold, after all if death is the penalty of sin then it couldn't be an animal year after year, there had to come a toime when the price was paid once and for all.
As for Steve Chalke with all due respect i would say the opposite in that you can't really say that God is Good and God is Just as the Bible declares him to be if he has to love Sin and he can't have anger to him.
Unfortunately we don't hear much about God's holiness but this is as important as his Love, because it's his holiness that protects us from the sin of this world and paid the price.